5

Is it possible for an intelligent species to have a language based on making a whistling sound through a hole for breathing located on their side? What is the plausibility of this? Anatomy for reference

asteroidbelt
  • 601
  • 2
  • 9
  • 13
  • I had once asked a similar question, maybe this helps: https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/q/129387/21222 – The Square-Cube Law Jan 20 '24 at 21:43
  • 5
    I'd like to make a point. This is a poor question for this Stack. Asking if something is possible is irrelevant for your worldbuilding efforts. proving the scientific viability of an idea isn't why we're here. We're here to help you rationalize the rules of your world. If you want that method of vocalization, we're happy to help you create it. Consequently, there's not a question here. It's possible if you want it to be because it's believable whether we know of an example to prove it or not. – JBH Jan 21 '24 at 02:54
  • whale can whistles too, they have blow holes and they are very smart – user6760 Jan 21 '24 at 03:49
  • 1
    can they make a variety of sounds, like several different whistles, if so then yes you can make a language out of it. – John Jan 21 '24 at 13:53
  • @John You don’t even need a variety, all you need is the ability to start and stop the whistling. At that point you can use either relative timings of whistles or gaps, or even just counts of whistles, to signal different meanings. – Austin Hemmelgarn Jan 21 '24 at 16:38
  • 1
    @AustinHemmelgarn I would disagree you need a certain level of complexity otherwise even a simple sentense for a full language takes way to long, If it takes half an hour to convey "The second spear on the left belongs to Bilbo's son so leave it alone" otherwise hand signals are easier. Binary as a language is only useful is you can speak at the speed of light. – John Jan 21 '24 at 22:59
  • @John The least phonetically complex human languages have around a dozen distinct phonemes (including both consonants and vowels) and are more than sufficient for basic communication. Human language has a typical speech rate of about 10-15 phonemes per second. Split each second into 100ms phonemes with 20ms time slices for each ‘bit’, and you can easily get enough phonemes with error detection (and possibly correction) to fit both those criteria. And being able to resolve 20ms duration differences is perfectly biologically reasonable (even humans can do that with a bit of training). – Austin Hemmelgarn Jan 22 '24 at 02:52
  • 1
    @AustinHemmelgarn sure if you have a dozen phonemes, tryin to do it with binary means you need an order of magnitude more "bits" to convey the same information because you need many bit to convey the same information and you have to worry about overlapping breaks so really your conveying even less information than binary. to compare the simplest human language in oyur example it can convent ~144 different combinations in the time a binary one can convey 3 (not 4 because 00 would have no meaning with sound) and that is before you include pitch and other syntax. – John Jan 22 '24 at 22:07
  • @John You’re missing my point. Rotokas, Múra-Pirahã, and other languages with such small phonemic inventories are demonstrably good enough for basic communications (and Rotokas even manages to use roughly the same number of phonemes as English for samples of text longer than a few dozen words). Ergo, that level of complexity is at least above the minimum requirement for effective communication, so any system that can replicate that level of complexity and match the signaling efficiency (which my proposal does) is also good enough for effective communication. – Austin Hemmelgarn Jan 22 '24 at 22:31
  • 1
    @AustinHemmelgarn except as a pointed out it can't even come close to matching the signal efficiency unless their are multiple different whistles. You are pointing out the very problem the simplest human languages have orders of magnitude more efficiency. even Campbell's Monkeys have a more complex language than you are proposing so you can't assume it is enough without more. – John Jan 22 '24 at 23:34
  • @John No, it exceeds the signaling efficiency unless you assume the absolute worst case comparison. 12 phonemes (the smallest number in any known natural human language) at 10-15 phonemes per second (the normal speech rate for essentially every known natural human language) is 35-52.5 bits per second. My proposed scheme is exactly 50 bits per second, well within the required range, and actually better than anything but the worst case comparison of 15 phonemes per second. They wouldn’t be able to ‘talk fast’, but that doesn’t mean such a language couldn’t develop. – Austin Hemmelgarn Jan 23 '24 at 02:40
  • 1
    @AustinHemmelgarn how do you get your numbers, why do you think whistles will take less time than the larger variety of phonemes? the number of sounds produced per second will be about the same, so the one with more possible sounds has more possible combinations thus far fewer sounds are needed to convey the same information. How are you possibly concluding it will convey more information? – John Jan 23 '24 at 21:22
  • @John You are assuming that natural languages are maximally efficient at using their phonetic inventories, which is not true. English is a great example, there are 1936 possible pairs of phonemes in English, but only about 600-900 (depending on dialect) of those possible combinations could be used as actual words (and plenty of those aren’t actually even used as words, see for example those that start with /ʒ/, /ʤ/, or /ʧ/). Ironically, small phoneme inventories correlate strongly with efficient usage of phonemes, to the point that they often take about as many sounds for the same meaning. – Austin Hemmelgarn Jan 24 '24 at 02:54
  • @John And, after rereading your comment, I also realize that you seem to be assuming that the alien species in question will have all same physiological limitations that humans do. The OP has not stated one way or another whether this is the case or not, but if it is not, then being able to produce whistles with a precise duration measured in the low double-digit milliseconds is not really all that unreasonable and trivially meets the criteria for what I had suggested originally. – Austin Hemmelgarn Jan 24 '24 at 16:43
  • @AustinHemmelgarn they have a slightly better hearing range than humans and there's about ten characters in their alphabet – asteroidbelt Jan 24 '24 at 22:56
  • ‘ten characters in their alphabet’ You can’t really determine this without knowing about the spoken language, unless the written language came first. And if the written language came first, then that actually is really important for answering this properly. – Austin Hemmelgarn Jan 25 '24 at 12:14
  • @asteroidbelt This doesn't directly answer your question, but you might be interested in this video. The presenter works through some of the implications for language of non-human biology (in this case: avian), from the perspective of conlanging. – realityChemist Jan 25 '24 at 21:17
  • @AustinHemmelgarn how is it important? – asteroidbelt Jan 26 '24 at 02:24
  • The existence of a written language implies a relatively high degree of organization together with tool usage, both before the language developed. Without that it can’t be consistent enough to be useful. This, in turn, means that creation of a spoken language from that written language is likely to be a much more synthetic process than if said spoken language evolved naturally. For example, you by definition have an established grammar you need to fit within, and you’re much more likely to get a 1:1 or near 1:1 mapping of phonemes to graphemes (assuming a non-logographic writing system). – Austin Hemmelgarn Jan 26 '24 at 02:52

4 Answers4

11

Ostensibly, a species can make a language out of anything. Bioluminescent signals, movements, using vocal chords, or by whistling. All a language is is a sequence of signals that can be interpreted; there's no reason that whistling can't work too.

controlgroup
  • 2,858
  • 1
  • 7
  • 30
  • The solution isn't possible simply because you can't think of a reason why it's not. This is a poor answer to a poor question. Try not to answer poor questions. Please review the "How do I write a good answer?" section of the Help Center. Thanks. – JBH Jan 21 '24 at 02:57
1

Morse Code

You can make a language out of anything. Even if your can only whistle a single note, you can always alternate between "on" and "off" to produce a dot-dash pattern and replicate Morse code. You can say anything in Morse code. It just takes a long time.

Your animal has a specially designed whistler and a specially designed listener, to hear many different notes. So you have a dot and a dash for each different tone of whistling. That should speed up the language considerably.

Daron
  • 66,136
  • 9
  • 129
  • 236
  • its worth noting morse code is not a full language and likely can't be one, because it has rather stiff inherent complexity limits. – John Jan 21 '24 at 23:01
1

It depends, but likely only simple / basic tool intelligence

The relationship between language and intelligence is intensely studied. The key in this question is the word 'intelligent'. Depending on what metric you use to measure this, the answer is it depends.

For Simple Biological Intelligence: It is observed that many species on Earth today exhibit 'intelligent' behaviours. 'Intelligent' biological behaviours could be any of the following:

  • The ability to perceive the world around them, and react and adapt to changing circumstances
  • The ability to form social groups, have social hierarchy, ability to communicate with each other

In this category - one may place dolphins and octopi. Their communication through 'clicks' and body behaviours, with limited bit (or information) rates. It has been demonstrated that Bees use 'dance' to communicate the location of a nearby food source, albeit slowly and over some time.

Tool Intelligence: This is behaviour that shows the following:

  • The ability to manipulate objects in the environment to accomplish goals
  • The ability to attain greater goals by learning tools

Some birds have been known to use their beaks to exhibit this behaviour, and obtain food by the use of tools. They communicate with bird whistles and fairly low-bit rate language. Monkeys are known to use stones, rocks and bones to open nuts. It is likely you do not need complex language to form this kind of intelligence.

Technological Intelligence: This is the most complex form, and can be shown by:

  • The ability to investigate and understand rules and laws of the environment, and then create building structures, industrial processes and machines that in turn can manipulate the environment using this understanding
  • The ability to transmit complex information across generations, such that each generation can improve successively, and create more complex societies over time

The only animals we know of to create Technological Intelligence are humans. Our language sound is quite complex, having the ability using tonal shifts, guttural and non-guttural utterances, a large pitch and dynamic range with our finely tuned vocal cords that allow us to transmit complex information quickly.

In addition, grammatical structures allow mutual understanding, and the ability to permanently record and write our language into a physical medium allows information to be cross cultural and cross generational, which is thought to be essential for technological intelligence.

So in summary, there are more ways to communicate than just sound, but if the language cannot be complex it is likely to achieve simple or tool intelligence. If you want technological intelligence, a complex language that can be translated to a system of writing would likely be needed.

flox
  • 21,847
  • 30
  • 73
  • I'll leave aside whether or not a complex spoken language is actually needed for the development of advanced intelligence (seems like marginally founded extrapolation to me but I'll just grant that point for the sake of argument). My main question is: why do you contend (implicitly) that the anatomy in question is incapable of supporting such a complex language? It seems like that is the cornerstone supporting your overall conclusion, but you've not actually explained your reasoning there. – realityChemist Jan 25 '24 at 21:13
1

You may want to look into whistle languages here on earth. There are a whole bunch of them that all work a little differently, which could provide inspiration not only for how such a language could work, but even how a diversity of languages among a species with this morphology could work. In our own world, whistle languages tend to arise from spoken languages, essentially whistling out the tones or stress (depending on if your language has stress or tones) that would mark the syllables of the spoken work. An example most people are familiar in english is the way to say "I don't know" that generally just involves shrugging and grunting the stress pattern of "I don't know".

Tonal languages like many indigenous american and east asian languages, will have whistle variants based on tone, while stress languages like most in europe will have whistle variants based on stress patterns. Tonal languages tend to produce more complicated whistle variants with greater flexibility, owed to the fact that each given syllable in a tonal language can have a lot of tones, while a given syllable in a stress language is, basically, just stressed or not stressed.

Good places to look for inspiration would be Yodelling, the Turkish "bird language", indigenous american languages like the whistle variants of Piraha or Zapotec, and whistle languages common in east asia like whistled Bai in China or whistled Hmong in Myanmar. If you can make a variety of sounds and combinations, you can make a language from it.

Jeremiah
  • 416
  • 2
  • 6