44

This isn't a film trivia question - I know the canonical answer is 'use them for power'. But it's a plot point that always bothered me, because Thermodynamics Says No. Humans aren't an energy source, they're at best a pretty inefficient way of converting 'food' to 'heat'.

Matrix power plant

So - assuming Morpheus was misinformed about the reason why humans were being stored by the machines - what could the real reason for it be? What would prompt a machine civilisation to store a significant fraction of the human population like that?

I am interested this from a world building perspective - the Matrix element is merely for setting context.

Humans seem largely redundant in an AI society. If you look at the Culture for a more benign example, you have humanity basically just playing, because there is nothing they can do that the Minds couldn't do better.

So what I am really looking for is

a) reasons why machines might decide to hang on to significant promotions of humanity - above and beyond "nostalgia" or "petting zoo" - some attribute or facet which would be useful to retain.

b) if the above still applies with humanity stored and their brains in simulation.

Sobrique
  • 3,689
  • 3
  • 19
  • 26
  • 1
    In the animated film titled "Animatrix" humans failed to exterminate machines and as a result the machines settled in a secluded part of the world forming their own country and economy. The spiteful humans began to boycott anything made by machines and even went as far as to deprive the machines of their main energy supply which is the sunlight. By then humans and machines goes into war again this time round we are not only outgunned but outlasted, we are their trophy their energy substitute btw this event happened after a few nuclear holocaust that took out nuclear power stations. – user6760 Sep 30 '15 at 10:11
  • 10
    @user6760, that was the definition of a comment that should be an answer. – user1717828 Sep 30 '15 at 12:54
  • Wow, comments pretty much agree that it makes the most sense that the Matrix AI was using humans as some sort of additional or complementary processing. They just proffer different ideas on what it was being used for... – Jim2B Sep 30 '15 at 14:38
  • Well, it does seem the most logical choice - I mean, lets face it, biological organisms are pretty good at adapting, surviving and dealing with diverse problems, but actually pretty inefficient overall. – Sobrique Sep 30 '15 at 16:57
  • 9
    I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it belongs to scifi.stackexchange.com (where it has already been asked) – SJuan76 Sep 30 '15 at 19:51
  • 3
  • If the question were reworded as a question searching for reasons a computer might impose a matrix-esque system then it would fit worldbuilding and also open up the other answers such as generation shipping or human built collective consciousness machinery. I'll have to concur with the closure if there isn't some slight modification of the question. – Joe Bloggs Sep 30 '15 at 21:18
  • Edited the question slightly. I did post here because I am interested in the world building elements of "why is humanity still valuable when the machines are in charge?" rather than this specific case. – Sobrique Oct 01 '15 at 07:10
  • I've thought about a different approach to the whole thing. Humans are tricked into believing that they live in the real world but, in fact, they're tricked by their senses being fed phony data, c.f. deus deceptor concept. But what's saying that the machines are aware of the real state of the world? Why can't the machines be in an epi-matrix that tricks their sensors... In such case, it's fully conceivable that the humans (or whatever entity runs the epi-matrix) are fond of humans and make the machines make people contribute with the energy production. – Konrad Viltersten Oct 01 '15 at 08:09
  • "If you look at the Culture for a more benign example, you have humanity basically just playing, because there is nothing they can do that the Minds couldn't do better" Some of the Minds are former humans, so a reason to keep humans is to keep "babies", or even "grandparents" if none of the AI is a former human. – agemO Oct 01 '15 at 11:15

23 Answers23

63

There's all the standard answers about brain-processors or the machines really actually having a goal/hobby of taking care of humans but I came across this one which takes a different spin on the Morpheus vs "Thermodynamics Says No" thing. What if the error in reasoning about the contradiction was at an even more basic level?

This isn't a perfect fit but I'm posting it because it's both terribly fun and fits the spirit of alternative explanations.

MORPHEUS: For the longest time, I wouldn't believe it. But then I saw the fields with my own eyes, watched them liquefy the dead so they could be fed intravenously to the living -

NEO (politely): Excuse me, please.

MORPHEUS: Yes, Neo?

NEO: I've kept quiet for as long as I could, but I feel a certain need to speak up at this point. The human body is the most inefficient source of energy you could possibly imagine. The efficiency of a power plant at converting thermal energy into electricity decreases as you run the turbines at lower temperatures. If you had any sort of food humans could eat, it would be more efficient to burn it in a furnace than feed it to humans. And now you're telling me that their food is the bodies of the dead, fed to the living? Haven't you ever heard of the laws of thermodynamics?

MORPHEUS: Where did you hear about the laws of thermodynamics, Neo?

NEO: Anyone who's made it past one science class in high school ought to know about the laws of thermodynamics!

MORPHEUS: Where did you go to high school, Neo?

(Pause.)

NEO: ...in the Matrix.

MORPHEUS: The machines tell elegant lies.

(Pause.)

NEO (in a small voice): Could I please have a real physics textbook?

MORPHEUS: There is no such thing, Neo. The universe doesn't run on math.

Source: http://hpmor.com/chapter/64

Murphy
  • 26,383
  • 2
  • 56
  • 94
  • 14
    @Frostfyre This does answer it, even though there should be more than copy'pasta for dinner... OUR laws of Thermodynamics would be broken. OUR math says it can't happen. We aren't in "our" world. The Matrix has us. (This is a "make believe" world... in THAT world, humans are, at the very least, efficient enough. I can't +1 a simple copy/pasta, but saying there is no answer here is disingenuous.) – WernerCD Sep 30 '15 at 13:02
  • 1
    @WernerCD The OP specifically mentions the assumption that Morpheus is misinformed. Refuting an assumption can be a valid answer, but this answer makes no mention as to that intention; it appears to be here almost entirely for entertainment value. So, yes, there is an answer, but not an answer to this question. – Frostfyre Sep 30 '15 at 13:22
  • It's certainly a valid theory, since it seems nobody (yet) has a canonical answer to the question. It's subverting the "Morpheus was misinformed" assumption in a perfectly sci-fi way (seductively hand-waving physics for the sake of the story), because in this fan-fic he's actually more informed than perhaps the OP realized. Still, I totally agree the answer needs a thorough explanation of all that before deserving upvotes. – thanby Sep 30 '15 at 16:37
  • 2
    Man, that's some pretty terrible writing. Not even close to how Neo talks or thinks. – Mdev Sep 30 '15 at 19:29
  • 1
    "The universe doesn't run on math." But apparently you can have a simulation of a universe that does? How does ANYTHING work in this supposed mathless universe? – Christopher King Sep 30 '15 at 22:32
  • 1
    A universe without conservation of energy would be so vastly different from our own that The Matrix could not really be considered to be a simulation of it. Hell, why do humans even need to eat at all in that universe? – Wossname Sep 30 '15 at 23:33
  • 2
    I would philosophically argue that the human brain is hard wired to understand math and physics which means it developed in an environment for which those would work. The human body argues for the existence of a universe in which math and physics works. – Jim2B Oct 01 '15 at 03:06
  • @Wossname Perhaps the machines discovered that there really was something special about the human brain/mind/soul like dualism and figured out a way to extract a very small trickle of energy through it. Doesn't mean that humans could pull the same trick. – Murphy Oct 01 '15 at 09:59
  • 1
    @Varrick This is Rational Neo we're talking about :P – Luaan Oct 01 '15 at 10:39
  • 1
    @Matthew The author is known for making characters more pedantic. It's the same person who wrote Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. – Keen Oct 01 '15 at 14:02
  • @Keen I think that particular page is a selection of the parody versions written for other stories by some of the readers of hpmor. – Murphy Oct 01 '15 at 14:39
  • @Murphy The official attribution is not entirely clear, but the header saying "the other fanfictions you could've been reading" seems to indicate that each of the listed stories was a candidate in a decision where Harry Potter won out. – Keen Oct 02 '15 at 02:04