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I have built a Tchou-Tchou 'hyperloop' wagon that reaches 310 km/h on a 500 meter test rail. One of my investor customers wants to try the Tchou-Tchou, but I am a bit concerned about his safety. To impress him, the train is configured to reach 310 km/h with constant acceleration after 250 meters, then slow back down to 0 km/h with constant acceleration at 500 m.

Will he survive the best case scenario? And what is the best case scenario?

Cyclic3
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Drag and Drop
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    If I'm not completely mistaken, that should somewhat over 2G, nothing a human body cannot handle, especially since it's only a few seconds. – Florian Schaetz Aug 04 '17 at 12:07
  • Is this about humans in an otherwise Earth-like setting? If so, please consider adding the [humans] and [earth] tags. If not, you may want to specify details on the people of your world. – user Aug 04 '17 at 12:23
  • @MichaelKjörling, I was focus on acceleration or other related tag I could not find, I totaly forgot those. – Drag and Drop Aug 04 '17 at 12:25
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    I've been wondering the same while watching The Flash. That guy's body has been altered to handle the high speeds. He even has a special suit to help with it. Sometimes his shoes catch fire if he runs with his regular shoes. He picks up people and runs around with them. Those people's bodies aren't altered the way the Flash's body is, nor are they wearing special clothes. I've been wondering why they don't suffer damage, and why their clothes don't catch fire the same way the Flash's shoes do. – Raf Aug 04 '17 at 13:08
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    @Raf the Flash uses the speedforce to shield them frlm the effects I guess? (But then, why can't he shield his own shoes,I know.....) – Patrice Aug 04 '17 at 13:16
  • @Raf, my question is not related to flash but to a Real life Hyperloop One test. As reading the new I thought it would have been really could if they sell tiket for this test. Or for a crash test... – Drag and Drop Aug 04 '17 at 13:33
  • Remember, it's not speed that kills humans, it's acceleration. – corsiKa Aug 04 '17 at 15:41
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    @Raf In a lot of the scenes you see in movies where people are snatched up at hyper-speed before a vehicle hits them, or while falling just before hitting the ground, they actually would die from the sudden acceleration of it, or in the ones that aren't quite as severe they would still be injured even if they did not die. Falling from 100 stories, or from a plane, there is no way to rescue someone once they are only a few feet from the dirt or road, no matter how fast you can move; they are seriously injured or dead even if you are superman or flash. Movies require suspension of disbelief. – Loduwijk Aug 04 '17 at 16:43
  • I'm not an expert, but I think it's a crappy design decision on your part to build a 500m loop without making sure humans can ride on it first. Does your investor know about this blunder?! – corsiKa Aug 06 '17 at 20:24
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    @Aaron - There is a way, but I never seem to see it. If someone can excavate fast enough, they can create enough space to decelerate a falling person more gradually. Some versions of Superman certainly would have been capable of this (but I don’t think they ever used it). – Obie 2.0 Aug 06 '17 at 23:51
  • @Obie2.0, I was reading your comment and I agreed with you. Then I read some local news about a 50 years old women that survive a 80m suicide from a bridge into rock.. If she can survie with nearly no damage.. Lois Lane can survive. – Drag and Drop Aug 07 '17 at 08:55
  • @Aaron You're right of course. Yet, in relative terms it's not as bad as it sounds: Lets say when hitting ground you decelerate vom Vmax to 0 in about 10cm distance travelled. If Super-Spider-Flash-Iron-Man gives you 1m of deceleration that's only 1/10th of the G forces, which can easily make the difference between being well and being - flat. – JimmyB Aug 07 '17 at 10:49
  • @DragandDrop Some people have supposedly survived falls from great heights, including falling or jumping from planes, falling with crashing planes, etc.. They usually survive with terrible injuries and often say they landed on something relatively soft, like mud instead of solid dirt, or on a steeply sloped, snowy hillside. These things are the rare exception to the rule, and all comments/answers herein should be taken as what to expect 99.9% of the time. – Loduwijk Aug 07 '17 at 14:05
  • @JimmyB I used "a few feet" off the cuff just assuming that was sufficient for near certain death. It is interesting you suggest that a perfectly executed deceleration could leave you "well" from that. I do think, however, that we need to take into account that even with Superman decelerating you perfectly, he is likely doing it with his hands/arms, so the pressure is not well distributed along your body. Even if Superman had an arm under/along your head and a bit of your spine and hand or arm under your lower back, you would likely be severely injured, possibly paralyzed. At least, I assume. – Loduwijk Aug 07 '17 at 14:11
  • Assuming V max of a human body is about 55 m/s decelerated on 0.1 m, according to all the formulas on this question, gives 550 m/s² ~56 g. You can expect 100% of mortality. – Drag and Drop Aug 07 '17 at 14:18
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    @Aaron, I was just pointing out the incredible coincidense of today news. There is no english version of the paper but she fall on the rock – Drag and Drop Aug 07 '17 at 14:26
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8 Answers8

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310 Km/h is 86 m/s. This means that on your 250 meters track (for acceleration), you'll have a mean speed of 43 m/s, meaning that you'll reach your 250m in 5.81 seconds. Now, 86 m/s reached in 5.81 s is 14.8 m/s², or about 1.5 g (same for deceleration). Maybe not really comfortable, especially for "regular" people not used to this kind of acceleration during transportation (except for rollercoasters), but undoubtely survivable.

user
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Keelhaul
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    Thanks for your great math. We survive! You will be invited next test! – Drag and Drop Aug 04 '17 at 12:28
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    Be aware that the start and end of the track, and especially the switch from acceleration to braking in the middle, are prime opportunities for your investors to sue you for causing whiplash if you haven't strapped them in properly. – Steve Jessop Aug 04 '17 at 12:52
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    The switch from accelerating to decelerating will not by very comfortable. That is an sudden 3g changes from laying on your back to hanging upside down. I hope the investor is strapped down well and doesn't get launched away :) – Dorus Aug 04 '17 at 12:52
  • @SteveJessop : well, the acceleration is constant during acceleration, and constant during deceleration, but there is still a brutal change from "my eyeballs are pushing in" to "my eyeballs are pushing out" at 250m. So I concur with Dorus on that one. – Keelhaul Aug 04 '17 at 13:00
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    I suggest a higher constant acceleration & deceleration and allow more time for the change from acceleration to deceleration. Say, three seconds acceleration, change from acceleration to deceleration with three seconds braking. Undoubtedly uncomfortable, but less chance of whiplash. – a4android Aug 04 '17 at 13:05
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    To expand on @a4android s Comment: With a top speed of 100 m/s = 360 km/h (simpler numbers): you can travel 500m in 10s with all of the following regimes: constant acceleration of 20m/s2 for 5s then -20m/s for 5s. Linearly increase the acceleration to 40m/s2 for 2.5s then linearly decrease to -40m/s2 for 5s then linearly increase to 0 for 2.5s. The best is probably an intermediate: linearly increase the acceleration to 25m/s2 in 1s then keep it constant for 3s then linearly decrease acceleration to -25 for 2s, keep it constant for 3s and go back to 0 in 1s. https://i.stack.imgur.com/zZbGk.jpg –  Aug 04 '17 at 14:24
  • @Agapwlesu : Actually, you can : since the acceleration is constant, the speed relative to time is linear, so we can very well use the mean speed. Furthermore, L.Dutch equations and even yours (given that you correct your max speed input) match perfectly my result. – Keelhaul Aug 04 '17 at 14:49
  • @Leonhard, Do you want to make this a answer. Because I love it! – Drag and Drop Aug 04 '17 at 14:55
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    Hi Keelhaul. Mathjax is rather expensive in terms of resources; please avoid using it just for formatting of mundane numbers. (Use standard formatting if you simply want to highlight the numbers.) By all means use it if you are actually typesetting formulae, though. – user Aug 04 '17 at 15:05
  • @Michael Kjörling, got it, I didn't know it was such a resource drain, thank you for pointing it. – Keelhaul Aug 04 '17 at 15:06
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    "Here, sign this waiver first" – anna328p Aug 04 '17 at 17:01
  • @Keelhaul See AgapwIesu's answer for an example of what I'd consider appropriate Mathjax usage. In this regard, I feel L.Dutch's answer is borderline. – user Aug 04 '17 at 19:24
  • You should count 1.8G rather than 1.5G. The Earth doesn't stop pulling you during the ride. – John Dvorak Aug 05 '17 at 00:04
  • According to this braking on a bicycle can generate as much as 0.8 g. So this is only about twice a hard brake job on a bicycle. :) – Kaz Aug 05 '17 at 01:01
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    Change in acceleration is called jolt in physics. Jolt is why we don't abruptly switch a straight railway section into a circular arc even if that is first order continuous. There would be a sudden sideways acceleration experienced by the passengers. Of course, roller coasters do stuff like that. – Kaz Aug 05 '17 at 01:04
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    The math checks out. A quick check is to plug in the acceleration figure into the familiar 1/2 a t^2 distance formula. 0.5 x 14.8 x 5.81^2 ~= 249.8 ~= 250. – Kaz Aug 05 '17 at 01:06
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Tsts, it's easy peasy.

Colonel John Stapp made progressively harder and harder experiments with deceleration himself to find out what the human limits are (He advocated the safety belt, by the way).

enter image description here Wikimedia, Public Domain

He stopped at December 10, 1954 with the rocket sled Sonic Wind from 1,017 km/h (632 mph) to zero in less than 1.4 seconds, experiencing a deceleration of nearly 46 g, meaning that the straps fixing him needed to hold the weight of an Indian elephant (Stapps weight was 77 kg (170 pounds), so the equivalent force was 3,5 t!).

For the more pragmatic people: The shorter the timeframe, the more g the human body can tolerate.

  • 3 g = -30 m/s^2 is something even old people can manage.
  • 5-7g = -50/70 m/s^2 will pass out most people if prolonged depending on fitness, roller coasters are in the vicinity of 5g.
  • 7-9g = This is really uncomfortable now; untrained people will stay conscious only for a few seconds and prolonged exposure will cause death.
  • 9-12g = Only extremely fit and trained people are able to handle this for a longer time (minute range): astronauts, fighter & aerobatics pilots.
Thorsten S.
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    literally an elephant was not on his back... literally he experienced a force equivalent to an elephant being distributed through his body – matt Aug 04 '17 at 14:47
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    @matt - he experienced a force equivalent to an elephant's weight being distributed throughout the area, on his front, where the safety belt was. –  Aug 04 '17 at 14:50
  • So 50 g of acceleration, and 50 g of deceleration, is the best case senario for you? I love the spirit! Are you related to Mr Stapp? May be you can be our pilot for our next test (It's just a Security break and crash test Nothing big..)? – Drag and Drop Aug 04 '17 at 14:50
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    If you don't mind having your eyeballs filled with blood, 50 g is just fine. Also, further complications including death could arise (do NOT try this at home) – Keelhaul Aug 04 '17 at 14:54
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    I say I want to "impress" my investor, not "In a press". I a common mistake. – Drag and Drop Aug 04 '17 at 15:00
  • @DragandDrop I added the common g-forces which can be still used. 3-5 g will impress your customer just fine. – Thorsten S. Aug 04 '17 at 15:32
  • John P. Stapp survived, but he never recovered fully. Eg retina problems lasted for the rest of his life. – Agent_L Aug 04 '17 at 16:58
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    @AgapwIesu If an elephant sits on your back, it's not the weight of the elephant that kills you, but the ground's refusal to let it move you. – talrnu Aug 04 '17 at 18:03
  • @talmu, in the case of an elephant sitting on your back, you have the force of the elephant pushing you down, and you also have the force of the ground pushing on you with the force of the weight of the elephant, plus your own weight. Net force acting on you = Elephant + Your weight - Elephant(ground) - Your weight (ground) = Zero = you get squished. It is both that kill you. In the case of you decelerating in a vehicle, the only force on you, causing you to decelerate, is the seat belt pressing on your chest, causing your acceleration to match the vehicle's. –  Aug 04 '17 at 18:10
  • And at 50g, the force a person experiences is not equivalent to an elephant. An average person has a mass of about 60kg, or 132 lbs. An average elephant weighs over 10,000 lbs. You'd have to experience almost 100g to be equivalent to being sat on by an elephant. –  Aug 04 '17 at 18:19
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    @matt "literally" means "figuratively" now. No. Really. http://www.salon.com/2013/08/22/according_to_the_dictionary_literally_now_also_means_figuratively_newscred/ – Beanluc Aug 04 '17 at 21:06
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    @AgapwIesu 60kg?! Are you a pygmy? German men have an average weight of 84 kg, German women a weight of 68 kg, average is 76 kg.And if you start nitpicking, for an Indian elephant the mass is 4t/2.7t. So the ratio of 1:50 is a good fit. – Thorsten S. Aug 04 '17 at 22:13
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    I hope my last edit will mollify the discussion about elephants, the force discussion and the use of "literally" – Thorsten S. Aug 04 '17 at 22:23
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    Analysis of Indycar crashes and brain damage would support the assertion that something significant changes around 50g. – JollyJoker Aug 06 '17 at 17:59
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    @ThorstenS. - "German..."?! Are you ethnocentric? The average body mass for humans is 62kg (https://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2458-12-439.pd). The average German may be bigger, but maybe you should search a little wider than a single nation of humans.... or a single species of elephant... but I guess you can edit your post to say "Indian" elephants. –  Aug 07 '17 at 07:00
  • Someone had to mention the rocket sled - and you did! +1 – Grimm The Opiner Aug 07 '17 at 08:00
  • Thank, for the g-force, great answer. But the debate about Stapp mass is incredible! – Drag and Drop Aug 07 '17 at 08:48
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    @AgapwIesu Knowing that US citizens are mostly coming from Europe I used the German numbers as rough estimate, but I also searched out the exact body weight of Stapp to be precise. After saying that, I am completely floored by the numbers you provided. Asians are 12 kg (!) lighter than Europeans and these are even 10 (!) kg lighter than North Americans ??! My estimate would have been 4-5 kg lighter for Asians...max! :-0 And those are numbers including overweight citizens. – Thorsten S. Aug 07 '17 at 10:03
  • @ThorstenS. - There are still a lot of not very well fed Indians and Chinese. (and a lot of seriously overweight Americans/Europeans). – Martin Bonner supports Monica Aug 07 '17 at 11:16
  • +1 just for bringing up Stapp, who is the authority on this. – Baldrickk Aug 07 '17 at 13:25
  • The weight of elephants. Baby elephants can weigh just 250 pounds or so. Average adult Asian elephants: female 3 tons, male 4.4 tons. Average adult African forest elephants: 5,950 pounds. Average adult African bush or savannah elephants: female 3.3 tons, male 6.6 tons. The largest ever shot weighed 11.5 tons. – M. A. Golding Feb 24 '18 at 19:52
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To expand on @a4android s Comment

For simpler numbers the following is calculated for a top speed of 100m/s

You can travel 500m in 10s with all of the following regimes:

  1. constant acceleration of 20m/s2 for 5s then -20m/s for 5s. This solution has the lowest maximum acceleration/deceleration, but it has aprupt changes of the acceleration which are dangerous to the passenger.

  2. Linearly increase the acceleration to 40m/s2 for 2.5s then linearly decrease to -40m/s2 for 5s then linearly increase to 0 for 2.5s. Here the acceleration is a continuous function without aprupt changes, but you need double the maximum acceleration. At around 4g this is still in the roller-coaster range.

The best is probably an intermediate solution, for example:

  1. Linearly increase the acceleration to 25m/s2 in 1s then keep it constant for 3s then linearly decrease acceleration to -25 for 2s, keep it constant for 3s and go back to 0 in 1s. This has a much more moderate top acceleration of around 2.5g and also has no aprupt changes in acceleration.

enter image description here

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    Excellent! Glad to see my comment expanded and built upon into a good answer. Plus one for being well done. – a4android Aug 06 '17 at 04:52
  • "aprupt changes of the acceleration which are dangerous to the passenger" mmm, no, it's the abrupt changes in velocity, which are acceleration peaks, that are dangerous to the passengers. – theGarz Jul 20 '18 at 08:54
  • @theGarz both are (Jerk) –  Jul 24 '18 at 05:49
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The correct formula to use here, given constant acceleration, is $v_f^2 - v_i^2 = 2ad$.

So $$a = \frac{v_f^2 - v_i^2}{2d}$$ with $$\begin{align} v_f &= 310\ \mathrm{km/h} = 86.11\ \mathrm{m/s} \\ v_i &= 0\ \mathrm{m/s} \\ d &= 250\ \mathrm{m} \end{align}$$ you get an acceleration of $14.83\ \mathrm{m/s^2}$ or about $1.50g$. This is well within human limits.

David Z
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  • PS: there are roller-coasters that pull over 6 g. And I imagine most roller-coasters for adults hit more than 1.50 g, although they probably do it more by changing the direction rather than the magnitude of the vehicle's velocity. And they probably hit the higher g's in smaller, even tiny bursts. –  Aug 11 '17 at 15:31
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I have done some math...

The distance you travel while accelerating with constant acceleration is

$d= 1/2 a t^2$

while the velocity you reach in the same time is

$v = at$

since you state the distance and the velocity, we can solve it in acceleration and time.

$1/2 at^2 = 250$

$at = 86$

Which gives $a = 86^2/500 = 14.792 m/s^2$, almost exactly 1.5 g for a total of 12 seconds.

L.Dutch
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  • if 1/2at2 = 250, how do you get at=86? –  Aug 04 '17 at 14:39
  • @AgapwIesu Because 250 / 2 = 86, obviously. – corsiKa Aug 04 '17 at 15:45
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    @Agapwlesu It isn't one to the next, they're separate equations (which lets us solve them later). One is distance traversed, the other is velocity achieved. We know the distance and the velocity, so we can plug those in for d and v. – Delioth Aug 04 '17 at 18:09
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    how do you get at=86?

    — by using a fact "train is configured to reach 310 km/h". 310 km / h = 310'000 m / 3600 s → 86,1(1) m/s

    – poige Aug 05 '17 at 08:39
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Top fuel dragsters currently accelerate from 0 to about 335 MPH (~540 KPH) in 1000 feet (~305 meters), taking about 3.5-4 seconds to do so (giving a little over 5 G's of acceleration). They then decelerate back to 0 in about another 5 seconds or so (around 3 G's of deceleration).

This is fairly impractical though. To do it, the cars use engines that produce around 10,000 horsepower. That puts enough wear and tear on the engine that it's standard practice to completely rebuild the engine every run.

Fighter jets can generate quite a bit more acceleration than that in a tight turn. Most have acceleration limiters, so they won't exceed about 8 G's, and will only maintain that for a very short time, then the jet will automatically "loosen" the turn to keep the pilot from passing out.

In this case, the acceleration as felt by the pilot is normally "downward"--i.e., pushing him/her down in the seat, rather that backward like the acceleration in a dragster. This has a significant effect--since it's pulling "downward", it's more difficult for the heart to pump blood to the brain. This leads to a "grey out" effect, where the brain (and eyes) are receiving little enough blood that vision becomes somewhat impaired.

Even achieving that takes fairly drastic measures--pilots wear "speed pants" to "squeeze" their legs, helping force blood upward instead of pooling in their legs. The "seat" in a modern fighter is also fairly reclined (e.g., around 30 degrees) to make it somewhat easier for the heart to pump blood to the pilot's head.

Getting to your actual question: these are probably close to the limit of what you can expect people to endure on a semi-regular basis. Accidents are often catastrophic, and even in the absence of catastrophic accidents the acceleration and deceleration take a substantial toll on drivers/pilots. A common injury among top fuel drivers is detached retinas. Don Garlits (top fuel driver, now retired) had surgery to fix a detached retina, and has admitted that it was fairly routine that the initial launch left him feeling "woozy" until he reached around the 300 foot mark.

So, getting to your specifications: accelerating at 1.5 G's should be no problem for any reasonably healthy adult. If you double that to 3 G's, there's still little likelihood of its being life threatening (especially given the relatively short track your postulating).

Tripling the acceleration to 4.5 G's gets you into the range where it's still entirely survivable, but you'd want to ensure the investor had a physical quite recently--it's getting to the point that you'd want to ensure that s/he was healthy enough rather than being able to take it for granted just because you didn't know of his/her being particularly unhealthy.

Jerry Coffin
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Top fuel dragsters can reach speeds of upwards of 400 km/h in under 3.2 seconds while traveling a distance of just 201 meters. They then decelerate quite rapidly using a combination of drag chutes and then wheel braking systems. The experience is no doubt extremely violent and uncomfortable, but drivers generally emerge from their cars unscathed.

-4

Bugatti Veyron

This is a real world example using the fastest production automobile. It's not as fast as your requirements, but I think it gives some great information on the physics and power requirements to do what you want and the video link is entertaining.

The Bugatti Veyron has a top speed of 408.47 km/h (253.81 mph) and can go from 0 to 408 km/h to 0 in 90 seconds. Yes, it's going to require slightly more track than your Tchou-Tchou, but if you can do this in a production car, you really could do this in your hyperloop.

There are engineering challenges to consider.

You don't describe your top speed of your Tchou-Tchou. I assume it will do more than 100 mph. There are some parallels you should keep in mind to improve the story.

In the case of the Bugatti, it requires 250hp to achieve 100 mph. To achieve 253 mph, it needs another 750hp for a grand total of 1000hp. This means the engine powering the Tchou-Tchou needs to quadruple it's output just to make your challenge work.

Much of that is the resistance caused by the air in front of the car which creates friction and slows it down. You will have the same issues in a hyperloop tube because even if it's a vacuum and lower air pressure, it's going to be really hard to make complete vacuum. The biggest challenge with pushing what becomes in essence a ram down a tube is how to displace the air in front of the vehicle. In subways or rail tunnels, they build ventilation shafts to give the air somewhere to go besides forward. If you ride a subway regularly in an underground station, you already experience this to a degree when the air in the tube blows by you when a train is coming into the station.

Others covered stopping already, which is possible, tolerable, but maybe not so much fun.

Video of speed test

I really recommend the video. It's an engineer and television host explaining the engineering challenges of developing a car which is able to achieve significantly higher speeds than most vehicles.

Good luck.

gwally
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    This device is on the order of seconds, the Veyron takes much more time, and thence much more track. If much more track is needed, the acceleration is obviously much lower, making this response unhelpful at best, and largely gratuitous. – Nij Aug 04 '17 at 21:14
  • I just outlined the physics problem of going from zero to 400 to zero, defined the power requirements, the reasons why so much power is needed, issues with accelerating in a tube and wrapped it up in a pretty package and you criticize the distance? VW spent $1 billion developing this car and learned a lot about the physics challenge. Stop looking at the pretty name badge and apply the lessons from the building the car to strengthen the story. – gwally Aug 05 '17 at 00:04
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    The point remains that a car taking minutes to achieve a worse result is clearly not operating at the same level as a device that takes mere seconds to achieve greater accelerations. You may as well talk about bicycles for all that it's the same "physics challenge". Finally, the question is about whether a human being can survive the acceleration: technology for doing so is irrelevant. – Nij Aug 05 '17 at 01:00
  • I just fail to see the point of the answer. But it could be because of my English skill. 1/. " require slightly more track " five mile track vs 500 meter. 2/. " you can do this in your hyperloop" It's already happening, Xp-1 Hyperloop One have made it. It's not Production but they are already trying to beat that speed on the same track. 3/. "engineering challenge " I get this one! But still not really revelant to the question but you re right, But the issue is no the one you are thinking. When at 0.01 Atm if the tube break the amount of energy that will be generated is Big. – Drag and Drop Aug 07 '17 at 14:38
  • The hardest part is to make a viable tube for long distance. 4/. "250 hp " well Horse power is quite interesting but still not related to the question. It's like talking about the price So 5/. "Good Luck Buying One" How? Why? I m mean try to answer mentaly to the newt question with "Good Luck Buying One" .. 1 ..2 ..3 Can I die falling from my chair? .. There is no way this could be an answer to the question. I appreciate that you bring this beauty(Chiron). But still . I don't see any way to edit your question to make it fit. – Drag and Drop Aug 07 '17 at 14:44